Umlondolozi osewathatha umhlalaphansi u-José Manuel Villarejo uhlale phansi ne-ABC ngemuva kokuvakashela indawo yaseTorre Picasso, enhliziyweni yezezimali yaseMadrid kanye nendlunkulu yayo iminyaka engamashumi amathathu. Esigabeni sokuqala asinika abezindaba bakazwelonke selokhu aphuma ejele, ngo-2021, waphikiswana amahora amathathu nokuhoxiswa kwalabo asebedonse intambo, abasenalo isiphetho ezandleni zabo. Ulindele isigwebo eNkantolo Kazwelonke esingambuyisela ejele.
-Ngokusho kwakho, i-CNI yaqopha izenzo zabo yase ibanika amakhasethi. Ngakho ifayela lakho.
- Ngempela. Isikhathi esiningi zazilethwa kimina ekhaya. Babengabaduni, ababezibiza ngonjiniyela besikhungo se-cryptographic. Babegoduka futhi kweminye imithombo yezindaba yasemhlabeni ehlukahlukene, babevula futhi bavale ngezinye izinhlelo ezazivela ku-inthanethi, mahhala, njengesiqinisekiso sokuthi lezi eziqoshiwe ngeke zisetshenziswe nokuthi ngangiyoba namandla phezu kwazo.
-Isebenze kanjani?
Ngokuvamile babesebenzisa ucingo. Ngezinye izikhathi, njengengxoxo oyibonile noNkk. Corinna, nganginelinye iqembu.
-Uzovuma ukuthi inguqulo eyimpikiswano, enamakhasethi avela eminyakeni engaphezu kwamashumi amathathu edlule…
-I-inertia ekhona kithi sonke esingabasebenzi bezobunhloli iwukuba siqophe konke ukungenelela kwethu. Ngezinye izikhathi amakhasethi amancane ayeyimishini ayengishiyela yona, kodwa kuyiqiniso nokuthi ngangithatha isinyathelo kuqala ngokuqopha.
- Ngakuphi okuhle?
-Ngokusetshenziswa njalo. Ubufakazi balokhu ukuthi kwaze kwamiswa i-fut, ukuba khona kwalelo fayela kwakungakaze kwaziwe.
-Wathi unomngane owayeqophe uCorinna Larsen. “Amakhophi ayisikhombisa phesheya” nelilodwa likhona uma bezombamba. Ucabange ukuthi kuwusizo ukugwema icala lobugebengu?
-Angikaze ngicabange ukuthi ukuthatha izinyathelo njenge-ejenti yezobunhloli kungaholela ezenzweni zobugebengu. Ngezwa ukuthi ubufakazi bomsebenzi wami kwakuyilelo fayela le-documentary.
"Bangikhiphe ejele ukuze ngithole ulwazi lokuqeda ubukhosi"
Lelo fayela kwaxoxwa ngalo emahlebeni aseMadrid kodwa ibhokisi likaPandora alizange livulwe kwaze kwaba nguJulayi 2018, lapho uVillarejo eboshwe izinyanga eziyisikhombisa esolwa, phakathi kobunye ubugebengu, ngokushushumbisa imali kanye nokufumbathisa.
-Ingabe udonse abathintwayo ukuze uzame ukuphuma ejele?
-Sasingekho isidingo sokudonsa othintana nabo, kuphetha kimi. Ngokushesha nje lapho isiphakamiso sokusolwa sesenzekile futhi uMaría Dolores (Delgado) eqokwa njengoNgqongqoshe Wezobulungiswa, waqala ukuvakashelwa amajaji ambalwa nabashushisi, abantu abalungile nabafunde kakhulu ababenikeza ithuba lokuhamba ukuze nginikeze. lwalokhu noma lokho. Futhi ngathi, Sengilungile. Ukuphela kwento ayiphikile ukuthi ngike ngahlanganyela kuyona wukujeziswa nguBukhosi. Ngathi akunjalo, ukuthi kwakuyiphutha ngasohlangothini lweSocialist Party, uma kwakuyinhloso leyo, ngoba kade kuyinhlangano ebucayi neyoMbuso.
'Ucabanga ukuthi ubani owayefuna ukuhlanganyela emsebenzini wokuqothula amaCrown?'
-Ngicabanga ukuthi umuntu osondelene kakhulu noMongameli kaHulumeni.
"U-Garzón noDelgado bebengangenzela okunye ukube bebefuna ukungisiza ngempela"
Kunzima ukuthi uVillarejo uyaphika ukuthi unento yokwenza nalokho kuvuza futhi unenkolelo-mbono ephusile yemvelaphi ekhomba umshushisi kanye nentatheli, ama-audios kaCorinna Larsen angagcina edale uphenyo lukaDon Juan Carlos futhi kamuva, ukuthuthela kwakhe e-Abu Dhabi, kwavela ngalezo zinsuku, ngoJulayi 11.
-Noma kunjalo, ubudlelwano noMnyango Wezobulungiswa baqhubeka bugcinwa futhi yilapho ngoSepthemba, kungazelelwe, ngaphandle kwendawo, kwaphuma isikhulumi esibizwa nge-moncloa.com futhi bahlunga ukudla okudumile enganginakho noNgqongqoshe Wezobulungiswa lapho Kwakungumshushisi, uMaría Dolores. Engakuthola kamuva, futhi ngokusobala anginabo ubufakazi, ukuthi uSanz Roldán waqinisekisa uNgqongqoshe Wezokuvikela, owayengenabungane kakhulu noDelgado, ukuthi wayezama ukungenza ngikhulume ngoMqhele. Kwakuwumcibisholo ukuzama ukumsusa endleleni
-Kusuka lapho?
-Ngize ngiphume ejele, izithunywa ezazithi zivela eHhovisi Lomshushisi zazama ngokuhlelekile ukungitshela okuthile ngoNkk Delgado noma uMnu. Garzón futhi ngangizokhululwa ngokushesha, futhi ngathi 'angisoze'. Futhi angizange ngikhulume noma ngikhulume lutho ngokumelene nabo, nakuba nginombono wami siqu engiqondayo ukuthi bebengakwazi ukungenzela okuthile okwengeziwe ngempela uma bebenesithakazelo sokungisiza.
-Ukuvuza kusaqhubeka ukwenzeka. Awuzange yini ugcine amakhophi akho konke lokho, ngisho nase-Miami?
-Abantu bakhuluma ukuthi ngingaba nekhophi phesheya. Kunoma yikuphi, ukuthi nginayo noma anginayo akusizi ngalutho kimi ngoba njengesinyathelo sokuqala sokuphepha, inqobo nje uma ngingayi ukuyoyilanda, ngeke bayinike muntu futhi ngaphandle kokuthi ngife, ngiyacabanga. lokho akuyikuvela ekukhanyeni. Ngacabanga ukuthi bahlela ukuzibulala, okungukuthi, angicabangi ukuthi kuzothatha isikhathi eside kuze kuvele ezinye izinto eziningi.
-Kube nozakwenu ovela kumojula ejele esusa okulalelwayo nemibiko evela e-Villarejo ngisho nangemigoqo yaseSan Sebastián...
-Yena ngokwakhe usememezele ukuthi uzenzele yena.
- Futhi izingxoxo eziningi eziyekethisa zenzekile...
– Angicabangi ukuthi noyedwa wethu lapha ongamela ingxoxo yangasese ngasese futhi ngokuphelele, ake sithi, endaweni ekhululekile. Into eyodwa-ke ukuthi yini engase iqashwe noma ingahlonishwa ngokombono lapho kuxoxwa ngokusemthethweni. Yilokho wonke umuntu akhathazeke ngakho, ngoba izingxoxo ezisefayilini lami zonke zisendaweni ekhululekile, lapho wazi khona ukuthi umuntu ucabanga kanjani, wenza kanjani noma ahlekisa kanjani ngezinto ezibalulekile.
“Bekuzoya ejele futhi uhlelo lwami alunalutho. Bonke abantu engangibasizile banyamalala."
– Uyabugcina noma yibuphi lobo bungane obaqoshwa?
-Cishe akukho. Umsebenzi wami omningi wansuku zonke, njengoba ngiwubona encwadini yami siqu yezenzakalo, kwakuwukwenza umusa. Kwakuzoya ejele futhi isimiso sami sasingenalutho kakhulu. Umndeni wami, umkami kanye nendodakazi yami eneminyaka eyisishiyagalolunye ubudala, kwadingeka baphile ngosizo lwabafowethu, abangani abambalwa kanye nezingane zami. Bonke abantu engangibasizile banyamalala. Yanyamalala ngokuphelele.
-Wacabangani uma uzibona ungena ejele?
Bengilokhu ngizama ukuba namahlaya. Ukube bengilapho izinyanga ezimbili, ezintathu, noma ezine, bengiyokuthola kuwukuhlangenwe nakho okuthakazelisa kakhulu. Kunabantu abahlonipheke kakhulu lapho. Kwaphela cishe iminyaka emine, bachitha nehlaya. Kodwa kwakungifanela. Umculo nokufunda kwangisindisa, ngiyacabanga.
-Lapho ephuma ejele, wabikezela "i-catharsis", kodwa izinsika zoMbuso zihlala lapho zazikhona.
-Ngicabanga ukuthi kukhona ama-cathars ayaziwayo, kodwa woza, bengibhekisela esitatimendeni sami. Ngimemezele yonke into ngokuphelele selokhu yaphuma. Enye into ukuthi ngezizathu ezingaziwa, kucatshangelwa ingxenye yecala le-Tandem njengezimfihlo zombuso, nezicucu ezivuleka futhi zivalwe ngaphandle kokwazi ummeli wami.
“Ukube ngenza imali ngolwazi lwamaphoyisa, bengingeke ngenze igolide, kodwa kunalokho 'orísimo'”
Lezo zicucu, okwathi ekwindla ka-2018 zaba umbhangqwana ngenxa yokuthi ijaji kuleli cala, u-Diego de Egea, akazange abone ngokucacile, afinyelele ku-36 futhi iningi lilandela iphethini efanayo yokufaka amacala: ukhomishana osebenzayo izinkampani zakhe ziqashwe ngabantu ngabanye. , ngokunokwenzeka, ukuqoqwa kwedatha ezisekelweni zamaphoyisa, ukuthola izicupho kubantu besithathu abangqubuzana nabo.
-Sekuyiminyaka engaphezu kwamashumi ayishumi sisebenza ngendlela efanayo, ezinze eTorre Picasso. Kungani ucabanga ukuthi kuze kube u-2017 akekho owenze lutho ngawe?
-Ngoba kalula futhi kalula kwakungekho emthethweni. Enye into ukuthi kwakusemthethweni noma ukuthi ngandlela-thile isimo se-ejenti yomshoshaphansi njengoba sisemthethweni, sihlukile esimweni ngasinye, kodwa kukhona icala lakamuva, lelo laseCatalonia elingene njenge-ejenti yomshoshaphansi iminyaka emithathu futhi akunjalo. ngenxa yokuhlinzwa okuthile . Ingabe iGrande-Marlaska ingaba nama-covert?
-Awuzange ube nokulawula kokwahlulela
-Kucacile. Ngaphandle kokulawulwa yinkantolo ngoba nakuba izinto zibalulekile, ziyashushiswa, amanothi ami amaningi obuhlakani awakaze ashushiswe. Kwakungamanothi olwazi engangiwazi futhi agcina esemayunithi akhethekile. I-90% yolwazi lwezobunhloli olukhiqizwa ngisho ne-CNI ayilokothi ibe nokuhambisana nomthetho.
-Ubengukhomishana osebenzayo, lokho akwenzi ukuthi ukuqasha kungahambisani?
-Kwakungekho ukungahambisani ngoba angikaze ngixube izenzo zami ezisemthethweni nezenzo zami zangasese, futhi ulwazi engiluthole ezenzweni zamaphoyisa aluzange lube nenzuzo. Uma kungenjalo, bengingeke ngenze igolide, ngabe ngizenzele 'orísimo'. Kukhona owayezazi, wazenza zaba nenzuzo futhi wazisebenzisa ukuze kuzuze uMbuso. Abangisola ngakho ukudalula izimfihlo ngokugcina amakhophi e-call traffic noma ye-347 yoMnyango wezeziMali. Kokunye kubonakale ukuthi bayakwazi ukuhlala abaseshi nabameli kangangokuthi abanawo amandla adonsela phansi.
-Izinkampani zakho zihlomula kanjani uMbuso?
- Lezi zinkampani zasebenza njengekhava ukuze zingene ezindabeni zezobunhloli kwezomnotho. Izizwe ngezizwe ziyingxenye yeSpain okumele ivikelwe.
Abane kubo balinyazwe kanzima ngokubizelwa eNkantolo Kazwelonke ngokuphendukela ezinsizeni zikaVillarejo: Iberdrola, BBVA, Repsol kanye neCaixabank. Ukhomishana, ephendula ubutha bakhe nowayeyinhloko Yezindaba Zangaphakathi, uMarcelino Martín Blas, amsola ngokuhlangana ne-CNI, uchaza umbono wakhe:
-Izenzo Zezindaba Zangaphakathi endabeni yami zikwazile ukuxosha bonke abasebenzi bezokuphepha kuyo yonke i-Ibex futhi manje sebengama-CNI colonels noma ama-CNI agents, abawaphethe. Indlela yokufuna ukwazi. Cha?
"Angicabangi ukuthi noma yimuphi walaba abakhona lapha ongakwazi ukukhuluma ngasese endaweni yangasese futhi ngokuphelele, ake sithi, ukhululekile"
Kodwa ngaphezu kwamaphrojekthi azimele kukhona amabili angathinta izimali zomphakathi. Ikhishi, elishushise ubuholi bangaphambili be-Interior kanye namaphoyisa, kanye nokusebenza kweCatalonia, uVillarejo akhuluma ngakho noma nini lapho ethola ithuba futhi akashushiswa. Izingcezu ezintathu zecala sezigwetshiwe futhi isigwebo asikho. Kwamanye amacala amabili, ngaphandle kweNkantolo Kazwelonke, uVillarejo ukhululiwe. Esokugcina, enyangeni nje edlule.
- Ubhekana kanjani neqiniso lokuthi angagwetshwa iminyaka engu-80 ejele?
-(Ehleka) Esinye isikhathi osusele ngaso. Uma ku-71 kufanele ngikhathazeke ngokuthi bazongigweba iminyaka eyikhulu noma amashumi amathathu ... Engikucacele ukuthi iNkantolo Ephakeme ngeke igwinye ubuwula njengoba yenze ecaleni lami. Ngicabange ukuthi balungiselela ukuzibulala. Ngike ngacabanga futhi anginandaba. Futhi ngibethemba ngokugcwele ubulungiswa. Ngicabanga ukuthi kwakuyindoda yezwe lakithi uSeneca owathi kuNero 'Amandla akho kimi awukwesaba enginakho ngawe. Njengoba ngingakwesabi, okumele ukwenze nje ukungibulala, njengoba enza. Ngakho-ke osekusele kubo wukuthi bangiqede nya, ngoba angibesabi, angibahloniphi ngisho.
-Kodwa umkakho naye angagcina elahliwe
-Cha cha. Ngiyaqonda ukuthi isicelo sejele somkami nendodana yami sasiwukungicindezela. Ngiyethemba, ngempela. Futhi ngiyazi ukuthi uma bengicela ngokushesha ukuthi ngingene ejele ngaphandle kwesigwebo sokugcina, yingoba bayazi ukuthi ngokufa kwenja, amarabi aphelile.
